The dialogue... that made me realise just how much he loves me.
(The conversation that went on before this basically consisted of me trying to explain to him that I work under the premise that every choice we make involves a trade off. If dealing with crappy colleagues is worth the pay at one's present place of employment, one would stay. If having a greasy burger once a week is worth the higher risk of heart disease, one would have that burger - and fries to go along. And so if I thought quitting the smokes 100% was worth doing for him, I would do it.
But obviously, in my head, not being a legitimate couple and being part of an illicit affair just wasn't enough for me to give up something I enjoy. Which means it would only work if I gave it up for MYSELF. In which case, I had every right to decide if I wanted to have a go every once in a while. After all, the goal - according to him too - was to have me choose to quit for ME. So that also meant that it was a decision for me to make. Expecting me to do it for him just wasn't fair and I couldn't rationalise it no matter which way I tried.
Fact: if push comes to shove, I'd be the first thing that he dropped. He can't give up work, nor is he about to quit his wife and kids.
Fact: I see him an average of 6-8 hours a week. To me, that's not enough face time that I would give up something I enjoyed for.
I think in the end he understood what I was saying. And I know I wrote earlier that it would stick this time cos I'd made the decision for me, but as Young Lady says, it's hard saying "I'm not ready to do this for you" and perhaps that's the mistake I keep making. Perhaps I was trying to prove to him that I was worthy. Perhaps what I should have been, was more honest with him, and with myself. Well, no time like the present to fix things. Although it would have been a heck of a lot easier of I just didn't pretend it wasn't broken in the first place.)
---------------------------
So if you do go ahead and have a smoke, you can tell me. I won't be upset. Although I won't be thrilled about it.
Would it be better if I just didn't tell you?
Then I'll always be wondering won't I?
Well, yes, but that also means you won't have to go thru this emotional upheaval again and again.
 |
| Feels like that's all I've done since I was her age |
But will YOU be able to keep it hidden? Some day you'll feel so terrible about it that you're going to want to tell me, like you did this time...
Nah, if it means it's easier for you to handle, I'll just not tell you. It's easy.
Oh?
Yes. I'll just re-build a wall that was once there, and go behind it. And you'll never have to hear about the smoking again.
The whole point is to break down the walls.
But if it means saving someone I love from heartache, I'd do it.
No. If and when you do feel like you want to have a cigarette, and you do, you can tell me. I won't be upset. I won't get angry. Because I'd rather you tell me, than go and hide behind your walls again.
Hmm, I'll quit for good when you live with me. :)
---------------------------
I am blown away by how he would rather have to cope with feeling sad that I'd choose to have a puff, than let me hide behind my walls.
I am also recently aware of something about his wife. And that made me slightly victorious. I told him so - that it made me feel a little better about myself knowing that she wasn't this perfect little thing.
And having said that, in a strange way, it made me angry that she wasn't. Because if he were mine, I would be perfect for him. And since she's the one that scored his lifetime marriage commitment, I almost feel as if she OWED it to him, and to me, because I love him so much, to at least TRY to be perfect for him, because he deserves it. I am halfway to indignant when I say I'm not even his (officially) and I'm trying so hard to please him, and it kills me inside when I know I'm disappointing him. But there she is taking for granted her status as his wife. I want to say to her, if you don't treasure him, if you don't care about being perfect for him, and pleasing him, and serving him, then let ME do it. Cos he deserves it.
Ok, I don't know where that came from. I can't explain it. But I suspect it stems from my feelings of possessiveness. I feel for him the reflection of how I feel when I'm feeling owned BY him. Am I making any sense? I don't have the word for it.
It's like when someone feels possessive over another, they only want the best things for them. I guess that's how I feel for BIKSS. But since I can't be there to fix his meals and iron his clothes and welcome him home to a clean house, then the next best thing is that the woman who IS able to do all that SHOULD!
Any psych practitioners wanna take a stab at my state of mind?
Hugs. I know sometimes that living situation has to get you down.
ReplyDeleteCan I ask a personal question, but you don't have to answer!! Does she know about you? Or are you a secret?
I just wondered. :)
I think you do have to quit for yourself, you can't just quit because he wants you to.
Love & hugs!
Elle
She knows I exist. But that we're long time friends only. I dont think she knew even back then how close we were. I suspect half the time she didn't know he came out to meet me.
DeleteNow of course I'm a secret. He never says he's out with me. I think.
Fondles, yes quitting is all about you, doing something for yourself.
ReplyDeleteHiding behind walls is very bad. If you're smoking he is going to know that detail about you. No hiding please. There's enough of hiding in your lives.
I cannot and won't try the psych approach to your state of mind.
it is not for me to be able to understand what is happening inside your mind. I can only look and think "How does she do it, staying sound of mind in this situation? She must be really strong!"
Hugs,
Bas
I try. N when i'm not, i pretend to be
DeleteI believe we will only be successful at things if it is something we want for ourselves, not something that someone wants for us.
ReplyDeleteI over estimated myself.
DeleteI agree you have to quit for yourself. I also agree that the point is not to have those walls. The fact that he doesn't want you to hide things from him says a lot :)
ReplyDeleteIt does. But its easier to. Besides. Its not like he's wall-less. Pfft.
DeleteLMAO - is this one of those "do as I say not as I do" situations?
DeleteWhat? Who? Really? Naaaaah...
DeleteSeriously tho. Some walls are like white lies. Not entirely great but serves a higher purpose.
But, he doesn't deserve it for her - because there's you. Even if she doesn't know, she has to know.
ReplyDeleteI get what you're feeling, because I once felt the same way. But a man with a (BIG) secret from his wife surely doesn't deserve perfection from that wife.
True. Chicken and egg. Which came first? I say the eggs broken n everyone's walking on eggshells. Someone jus get more eggs already. Or else just make some omelettes n clean up the mess
DeleteEggshells are really, really no fun to walk on. I'm with you.
DeleteI was discussing your post with My Man this morning and I just cannot imagine. I can't imagine the pain and anguish of belonging to a man who cannot truly belong to me. This isn't a judgement, but a question... is it worth it? Is it worth being with him, being his, for the times he is able to fit you in? This isn't a diss on Bikss I think he deeply cares for you and the times that you are together I think he is the best thing for you, but in the long run overall knowing that his family must come first (which I agree with in the abstract, like given a situation with people I don't know I would say of course the man should always choose his family over his mistress, but it's harder to be objective in your case because I love you.), do the benefits outweigh the pain?
ReplyDeleteAll of that said... if you are choosing to be his, if you are choosing to be in this relationship, if a piece of his heart is worth everything, then you can't hide. You can't build walls. You can't partition your life to give him portions and hold back the rest. If you are choosing to give yourself to him then give yourself fully. If you trust him trust him fully. If you love him love him fully. Otherwise it won't work. If he is the man he seems to be from reading on here he wants and needs to know everything. He brought you that delicious food you were craving because you told him. He knows the nights he can walk with you or grab a drink with you because you tell him the silly and mundane parts of life. He wants to know all of you. And part of that is your weaknesses. When you grab a smoke he wants to know, not because it makes him feel good, but because he cannot care for you and about you if you're holding back.
Ok, so I will get off of my soapbox now, I don't know where all of this came from. I hurt for you and I want you to have the amazing life that you "deserve". I will be praying for you and as long as you'll let me I will keep being your friend and being happy and excited for you when you are happy and excited and try to comfort and love you when you are down. I suck at it, but I will try. :-)
You dont suck at it. I love you. And u made me cry.
DeletePlease dont let go of my hand.
I relate to much of this... you know i don't live with my Master. I'm not sure he'd give up his "single life" anyway. He was married for a long time, almost as long as I've been with my s/o.
ReplyDeleteI'm staying with my wife because I'm fond of her, tho we don't have the close relationship I thought we did. We have young kids and that's the main reason I stay.
As to smoking...
you should quit (you know that already tho)
And I'll add...I've had a LOT of experiences in my life, including a very nasty hysterectomy in my 30s that took a long time to recover from.
Quitting smoking was the HARDEST thing I've ever, ever done. Took 3 tries to quit, and I've been smoke free for 22 years now.
Do it for your life. Do it for YOU....but really? Do it.
(lecture over!! LOL)
nilla
Huh. Naggy Nilla!
Delete:p
But seriously. I wish sometimes that it was ME who was having an indiscretion.
hmm...I learned that I have to lose the weight for me...same goes for smoking..or any major life change. Having said that, I would never be successful if it were not for Master. As for your state of mind, I have an inkling of where it is at,,,and considering your circumstances it is no wonder. You want it all..we all do...who can blame you??
ReplyDeleteWhere ever the future leads you...you have lots of friends here who will support you and hope the best for you.
hugs abby
Thanks. Can i call Group Hug?
DeleteCan I be in the group hug?
DeleteWouldn't have it any other way!
DeleteThere is only one way I can describe such feelings and that is being human. Though that is not helpful in its self, I hope it shows you that your feeling are perfectly valid.
ReplyDeleteThank you, it did the job!
DeleteThis is a difficult one, i think the giving up smoking has to be your choice, you have to do it for you because you want to...but im a smoker so im not about to lecture on it.
ReplyDeleteAs for his wife well, having been the bit on the side in a previous relationship (which is how i percieved myself) i know its not easy, i would go from being jealous of her, i really believed i was better for him than her. But eventually i had to be realistic and honest with myself..i was never going to be more than the bit on the side, it wasnt a relationship no matter how much i tried to convince myself otherwise and that just wasnt enough...it hurt too much.
Its a difficult situation for you both and i feel for you both, i suppose the best i can say is..enjoy it..what will be..will be.
x
The bit on the side. I suppose i am.
DeleteQue sera sera.
Nope see i think a difference with you and Bikss is that there is genuine love and a history, and a relationship....which perhaps makes it more difficult.
Deletex
Oh, if you put it that way, then yes. I KNOW there is love and there is history and we work together. I just wish there was more "Together" time.
Deletehmmm. This is difficult for me to comment on, seeing as I am married, and I kind of feel that if a spouse (or anyone in a relationship tbh) wants to have a relationship with someone else, they should be up front about it, and if the reason they want to have a relationship with someone else is because the main relationship is not working in some fundamental way, they should address that and possibly end it, because it just isn't fair.
ReplyDeleteon the other hand, just in case that makes me sound whiter than the driven snow, one of my first serious relationships was with a married man, so I do get what you're saying!
Also, a recent discovery of mine is that you can only be responsible for YOUR side of the relationship, trouble comes when you try to do both sides (through expectations and so on), so yeah - love whole heartedly, behave how you believe you should within a loving relationship, let him take care of his half :D
and i loved the dialogue!
Yeah easier said than done. My brain knows tgis, in theory, but real life is a different thing.
Deleteyes its DEFINITELY easy said than done, i'm still struggling with it! ((hugs))
DeleteI think you've had the group hug - and i'm glad, because it sure was needed.
ReplyDeleteAlso, i can't think of a psych practitioner in her right mind who would touch your state of mind - lol - and just saying.
However, i will say that as someone who smoked for most of my life - over 40 years - and hasn't smoked in over 3 years - i totally support your decision not to quit smoking at this point. And i hope when you do smoke, you enjoy every hit. i'll never smoke cigarettes again, but they were my dear friends for many years.
i will share this with you, because i ran across it when i was in that ambivalent maybe-i-wanna-quit or maybe-not stage and thought it was awesome. http://www.fairpoint.net/~mrtedd/srm/smoking_ritual.htm It may not speak to you at all, and i didn't do exactly what it described, but i loved the article.
{{{{{{hug}}}}}}}}}
aisha
Thanks, i'll go look. Does it have to be an all or nothing situation?? Hrmph
DeleteNo, actually it doesn't. The research suggests that there are three types of smokers - one type is hooked pretty much from their first hit. (That was me.) One type might try it once, but is completely unimpressed and never does it again. The third type is able to smoke some of the time and not smoke some or most of the time. They can really take it or lead it. i had a friend like that - she smoked with us at work {outside, of course} but on weekends would sometimes "forget to smoke." We'd tell her she wasn't a real smoker because REAL smokers NEVER EVER "forget" to smoke. For sure, i never did.
Delete
ReplyDeleteI feel for your situation on all accounts. I guess I would just ask if you are you happier more than you are sad? That to me is the ultimate determining factor if I stay or go. It is also easier to make statements about how you would be (no doubt you would be wonderful to him ) if he was yours 100% of the time when you are not.
Smoking - yuck- but you know that.
You will never ever ever ever truly quit unless it is for you.
Group Hug sounds great!
~faithful
Am i more happy than i am sad?
DeleteI was. Leaps n bounds more. Now its kinda equal. Thats why my brain is in overdrive
Sounds like you've got quite a but going on. I also think Conina brought up a good point -- she maybe senses something's up and perhaps that's why she isn't "perfect." I am no psychologist but I'm wondering if maybe you're annoyed about her not being perfect for him because you know that you are capable of being perfect, yet, he lives with her and not you.
ReplyDeleteI don't mean for that to sound harsh but just saying, you know you could do him such good, yet, you can't have him full-time, and he's with someone who won't give that to him. Just my two cents...
Well i suppose she must have done / be doing something right. In any case she gave him kids- something the doctors told me a long time ago i would have difficulty with. So u know, if we HAD hooked up n fell in love earlier n married, his life might have been missing something too.
DeleteSo i suppose a part of me will always feel lacking.
Awe Fondles, I feel for you so much. I know it must be so hard loving a man so much who can not fully be yours and that it hurts when he is not with you.
ReplyDeleteI think I understand where you are coming from regarding his wife and think she must at least suspect something is up. I think your feelings show how deep your love is. You only want the best for him always, even if it cannot always come from you. I have to say, that is totally selfless on your part. If would be so easy in your situation to hold on to that victorious feeling (which I can also understand).
As for quitting. I am a smoker too. My husband is not happy about it but he realises quitting is something that really has to come from me. It is something I have to want for myself. At the moment I'm just not in the right head space to give it a go. I know when I am ready, he will be there for me to support me and encourage me.
Don't build those walls hon. This is something BIKSS wants for you as well. He wants to support and encourage you. He may be disappointed should you have a wobble, but then so will you be right? Wouldn't it be much better to face that together and let him help and encourage you?
((Hugs))
Roz
*mutter mutter* yeah yeah... no walls... I got it.
Deletedo you lot HAVE to always make so much sense?
*grumbles and potters away to the kitchen...*
I'm going to send Mr. Woods over here and see if he can shed some light. I was married when we met.
ReplyDeleteMy only advice, and I hope none of this sounds harsh, will be that you have to try not to judge the wife. As much or as little as you know, or think you know, you don't. You're getting one side to the story and you can't expect that he'd tell you all the details of his marriage. Who knows what's actually going on over there. And as perfect as you think you can be for him, you're not. No one is. We are human, after all.
So now that I've sounded like a big meanie, I want to say that I am NOT judging you, by any means. I was the other woman in a previous relationship, and I've had an affair while married. I've been on both sides. I do feel for you, but I also feel for his wife.
Whatever you decide to do, all of your blogger friends are here. :) *hugs*
Thanks for the advice. Really. I suppose sometimes hearing it from my blogfriends is different from hearing it from him.
DeleteIt's like you guys have 3rd-person immunity. So I *know* you're all trying to be as objective as possible.
Besides, 3rd-person insight is often more accurate.
This post really spoke to me and the things Kitty and I have gone through.
ReplyDeleteFirst, smoking. Kitty smokes, and no amount of anger or hurt feelings or rational arguments will compel her to stop. So like BIKSS, I eventually got to the point where I said I'd rather accept it than have her wall that part of herself off. If this is her, then so be it. And what she doesn't know is that to be able to say that to her, to be able to accept that she participates in this habit, I had to wall a part of myself off from her. The part where smelling her and kissing her and seeing her do it reminds me of all of the death and evil that these little sticks of tobacco have brought into my life. So as her Dom, I've decided to wall those emotions off in myself so that she doesn't have to build any walls herself. I'll wall off the pain in my chest that I feel every time I know she's had one, so that she can keep herself totally and completely open to me, as she should.
I have to disagree with everyone else here. People do things they don't want to do every single day, just for the sake of other people. When I give my five-year-old my jacket and endure the cold and rain so that he might be warm, I'm not doing it for me. When I volunteered for bootcamp and war, I didn't do it for me. When I take my blood pressure medication and cut the bacon out of my diet, I'm CERTAINLY not doing it because I suddenly dislike bacon. I'm doing it because Kitty asks me to. So I always have trouble understanding why so many people say, "You have to quit smoking for you." I suspect there are things you do every day for other people, so why is this one thing something that you have to do just for you?
Second, is the marriage thing. Kitty was married when I met her. We carried on a relationship for over a year while she was married, actually, and it hurt every day being in love with someone who wasn't actually available. But there was one thing that always kept me there. She was thinking about me. It didn't matter if she was sitting with him on the couch watching a movie, or having a holiday dinner with his family, or even having sex with him. Always, she was thinking about me, and I was sure of it. And I realized, he may have her physically, but emotionally, she's mine. I'm the one she runs to. I'm the one she works hard to spend time with. I'm the one she dreams about.
Does he tell you he misses you when he has to be away from you? Does he tell you he's trying his best to find time to come see you? Does he tell you he wishes it was you he was sleeping next to at night? If so, then I completely understand why you stay, but I should also add that even though Kitty and I are happy together now, we both recognize that what we did was wrong. That's the root of it. Whether you regret it or not, whether it works out or not, it's the wrong way to get what you want, and I think you know it. If you're anything like me, that's why you look for flaws, and that's why you get angry when you find them. If she's not perfect, then this is ok, because you are. If you're better than her, if you can make him happier than she can, then you're justified in carrying on this relationship. At least that's what experience tells me. Your experiences, of course, might be different.
Sure, I agree that doing stuff doesn't necessarily need to be for you. I think everything has a price. If keeping your son warm satisfies your need to be a responsible parent, that outweighs the physical discomfort of being cold. If volunteering for bootcamp and war satisfies your need to feel patriotic and/or satisfies your ego (I don't say this like a bad word, I mean the "self") then sure it makes sense for you to do it rather than NOT.
DeleteBut you did those things for yourself too. If you didn't care whether you took up arms for your nation or not, you'd likely not have volunteered.
The same goes with cessation of smoking for me - the trade off has to be worth it. I say this about everything: what do I get out of it? And if the "what I get" is worth the effort, I'll do it.
Even something as simple as meeting someone for dinner - if their company is boring and/or I have something else I'd rather do, then I won't say yes.
But if I've been home alone sick with boredom for a week, I'd probably jump at the chance for some / ANY company. All I'm saying is it's all relative to other things that we're constantly weighing.
At this point, what I have is not enough for me to stop entirely. It's enough for me to say I'll not smoke MOST of the time. But I want to maintain some autonomy - particularly in this area.
Will I ever give it up entirely? I don't know. Something might have to change, or it might not - my health, our living conditions, the state of my friendships with smoking friends, whatever... but right now, the price hasn't been met.
As for the other thing - I agree. Perhaps I need to justify it. That's why I find fault. Do I think it's wrong on some level? Yes. But if it's not me it'll be someone else. And I'd rather it be me.
"Does he tell you he misses you when he has to be away from you? Does he tell you he's trying his best to find time to come see you? Does he tell you he wishes it was you he was sleeping next to at night?"
I will say Yes. But it sometimes needs coaxing out of him. He's not terribly vocal. And while he keeps a chat-line constantly open that's usually his way of showing me that he's thinking of me. Do I get the grand declarations? The wistful longing texts? No and No.
I can count on one hand the number of times he says -I love you- NOT as a reply. He's just NOT wired that way. He's a toucher. Which means often when we're together I can see it, feel it, experience it. When we're not, um... it's just a constant stream of chit-chat - sometimes about blogland... but more often than not, it could be the chatter of two good friends and nothing more.
I know it's not realistic to have conversations all the time about how much he misses me or how much he'd love to be with me right now... but perhaps we could do with a little more, *I* could do with a little more.
So to help it along I try and say mushy romantic things, or I talk about wanting to be spanked more, or I steer the conversation in a direction that brings US into focus rather than what's for lunch, who said what to whom in the office, or this is terrible weather. Not that I don't appreciate it. I'm just saying... maybe it's a little off center at the moment.
*crap - this is now so long, I shoulda just written a post right?*
You were only responding to my marathon comment, so it's ok. :) And I think that's a very honest evaluation of how you're feeling right now. Having spent so much time in the position you're in now, I can say with certainty that I never would have made it through if it wasn't for a constant stream of reassurance from Kitty. I can't think of any other way to stay sane when the person you love has to go home to someone else every night than to be able to hear regularly that they'd rather be going home to you. So I understand your frustrations, and if I may be so bold, I know exactly what you're going through. Communication is key, and if what you need is more reassurance, then tell him.
DeleteThat might very well be just it. I'll do that right now! :P
DeleteThanks for your thoughts on this post.